tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post3499033489602753659..comments2024-03-19T06:12:18.701-04:00Comments on Today's Inspiration: Ben Shahn: The Most Influential Illustrator of the 20th Century... or "just plain bad drawing"?leifpenghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07232334860061949895noreply@blogger.comBlogger89125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-675663830389383872021-02-23T03:49:23.075-05:002021-02-23T03:49:23.075-05:00We TreatAssignmentHelp is a team of expert profess...We TreatAssignmentHelp is a team of expert professional writers who provide <a href="https://www.templepurohit.com/forums/users/essaytypist1/" rel="nofollow">Law Assignment Help In UK At TemplePurohit</a> with Assignment Help England, Assignment Help Ireland, Economics Assignment Help, etc in the UK. Our assignment helpers aim to provide 100% plagiarism free assignment help. Our approach to the core values helped us from being the most promising online assignment help to the student’s favorite assignment help in the UK. Contact us today & get a Reasonable pricing quotation. Contact us by email at help@treatassignmenthelp.co.uk and our experts will contact us as soon as possible. For more services:-<br /><a href="https://knkusa.com/forums/users/essaytypist1/" rel="nofollow">Case Study Help At Knkusa</a><br /><a href="https://dual.de/forums/users/essaytypist1/" rel="nofollow">Homework Help In UK At Dual</a><br /><a href="https://gerstnerusa.com/forums/users/essaytypist1/" rel="nofollow">Science Assignment Help In UK At Gerstnerusa</a><br /><a href="https://www.1bike1world.com/forums/users/eliza-morris/" rel="nofollow">Assignment Help In Australia By ElizaMorris</a><br /><a href="https://elitetrack.com/forums/users/ellaphillips/" rel="nofollow">Assignment Help England By EllaPhillips</a>mariajemmisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12027448057597291531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-28251665424078126662020-12-28T16:27:38.591-05:002020-12-28T16:27:38.591-05:00The author thank you for sharing your opinion, but...The author thank you for sharing your opinion, but I disagree with you. The fact is that there is nothing wrong with the simplicity of forms, this is the style and development of art of the 21st century, and your views on this matter seem conservatively ossified. By the way, the illustrations you shared look great and are well selected. I think you should post this collection on Instagram and it will definitely get a bunch of likes, since according to my observations, very similar posts have about 32 thousand likes. I am sure their authors resort to the services of <a href="https://soclikes.com/buy-instagram-likes" rel="nofollow">https://soclikes.com/buy-instagram-likes</a> to buy likes.Matthew Cottonhttp://sdfwsfweffewfef.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-34039443866930299352018-11-07T12:28:46.737-05:002018-11-07T12:28:46.737-05:00HAJiME,
Your ideas are fine, not too distinct from...HAJiME,<br />Your ideas are fine, not too distinct from other people in this discussion, but perfectly fine ideas. But your last two lines, you work for the census or something? You can tell us what matters most to people who practice illustration in the way you described? I doubt you work for the census but I accept you if you do. Namaste. But if you don't, why go there? Why not stick with what is substantial about your point of view? <br />Karidinayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00186044973123268031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-65489545297895187392014-10-26T13:04:27.554-04:002014-10-26T13:04:27.554-04:00Thank you for posting this. I do like Shahn's ...Thank you for posting this. I do like Shahn's work immensely. Reading this I couldn't help but think of the early impressionists and how they were told by the establishment that they needed to learn how to paint first before they should and could make pictures. I find Realism and its perpetual pursuit can be limiting, nullifying, and boring, and really it's just one among the plethora of styles available today; This is what art history is about. Much of Shahn's work, not all of it, of course, can have such a punch. And I have seen many so called realistic works, highly technically proficient, that will not get a second glance at your local coffee shop. The 19nth century is a long time ago. Those battles to me are long gone. Shahn's works are graphic and bold, often with impact, and also very importantly, with a sense of design in mind. This to me is the difference between good and poor illustration: Design. It isn't how well, or proportionate a figure, house etc... is displayed,. One just has to look to illustrators like Paul Hogarth, or even someone today in demand today like Felix Scheinberger. Illustration is way more that technical realism, and Art is more than copying what's in front of you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-10524544243425223612011-07-09T12:15:31.833-04:002011-07-09T12:15:31.833-04:00Steve; I don't know if Shahn's philosophy...Steve; I don't know if Shahn's philosophy on realism needs to be read quite that pessimistically but, ok, I suppose that's one way to look at it. Based on what I've heard from people like Murray Tinkelman, Anita Virgil, and William A. Smith's wife, Ferol, Ben Shahn seems to have been received as a breath of fresh air. His book, "The Shape of Content," which elaborates on the content of the <i>Look</i> article, seems to have really influenced a lot of illustrators of that period in a very positive manner.<br /><br />As for those theoretical young art students you talked about; what can I say? No doubt what you suggest was the case for at least some of them. Hopefully they had other influences at art school that presented other views. Hopefully they were open-minded enough to give many views due consideration. Ultimately they probably chose the course that best suited their own wishes for their post-college endeavors.leifpenghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07232334860061949895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-8898099910789701072011-07-08T21:24:05.837-04:002011-07-08T21:24:05.837-04:00So the theme of Shahn's article is that there...So the theme of Shahn's article is that there were and are many styles of painting that attempted to depict realism,and different definitions of realism.The artist finds one that fits,and it can communicate realism,as long as you sincerely place the socially aware,politically correct,humanistic,worldly-wise idea content into the art.Big ideas beat showy displays of skill.My guess is that he was sincere,so I won't dispute his motives.<br /><br />But,of all the historical art examples he lists,he rains contempt on drawing in perspective as an option,which he labels"egotistic"and "myopic",and that he couldn't force himself to work in that "false"approach.It's the only approach that he dismisses completely.<br /><br />Hey,Ben Shahn,lighten up!(I know he's dead)I'm willing to at least tolerate your symbol-drawing style,but you can't conceive of working in a representational drawing style that communicates meaningful ideas honestly.<br /><br />I bet some budding artists could read that article and dismiss realistic drawing because a real artist dissed it.<br /><br />But I realize he was responding to the public that preferred Rockwell realism.And he was promoting his own approach.But,still...Steve Fastnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01550271224882245081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-64438413937380414052011-07-08T09:03:12.441-04:002011-07-08T09:03:12.441-04:00HAJiME; I could kiss you. Thank you! FINALLY som...HAJiME; I could kiss you. Thank you! FINALLY somebody gets it. Beautifully put! I want to again thank everyone for participating in this discussion in such a respectful manner - opposing points of view or not. By contrast, the mob mentality on @gemmacorrell's blog has displayed the WORST of Internet 'discourse'. Apparently we're a bunch of "narrow-minded" "old dudes" and "passive racists" (?) for even daring to have this discussion.<br /><br />What can I say? I'm just so grateful for the intelligent, courteous participants who shared their insight on this topic. Thank you again! :^)leifpenghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07232334860061949895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-62367864662223404002011-07-08T05:52:40.042-04:002011-07-08T05:52:40.042-04:00I'd also like to add that everyone is missing ...I'd also like to add that everyone is missing the authors point spectacularly. He is not questioning whether or not Ben Shahn's work can be enjoyed or is beautiful. That will always be personal taste, but has such illustration legitimised drawing badly? The point is that there are a hell of a lot of people who cannot draw illustrating, to the point where the face of illustration is predominantly bad drawing - but everyone seems to ignore it. Its style, its expressive, its interesting. You can be all these things if you are trained in artistic practise, if you can draw and if you do care for representational image making, but it does not work the other way round. I've too noticed that only editorial illustration really seems to have any ground and those who do have good image making skills seem to end up calling themselves by other names! Even graphic arts seems to contain more skilled individuals than illustration! People will the skills tend to survive longer in the field, the rest may get a boom where their style is popular but will then fade away into nothing. And most won't get noticed at all. But it doesn't matter, because expressing yourself and not working hard is all that matters to most of them.Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18288620959846712806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-79567351377472550882011-07-07T16:23:25.591-04:002011-07-07T16:23:25.591-04:00On my course (Illustration BA HONS), representatio...On my course (Illustration BA HONS), representational work wasn't exactly frowned upon but it was as if they thought it was a waste of time. Any attempt to learn or practise drawing skills resulted an attitude which suggested that you should use your "talents" only, not learn or develop your skills. Keep making images in that shitty way you have been doing and if you are going to develop, make sure it's experimental mixed media collage that took you 2 seconds. I don't necessarily dislike naive work, I actually quite like some of it. But I like McDonald's cheeseburgers too, but I know they are of a poor quality. I think it's possible to make interesting, communicative image making, that isn't necessarily representation, whilst still displaying some form of educated care for image making - too many people get away with not doing this, and it's lowering the overall standard.Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18288620959846712806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-65394608119701203832011-07-06T17:31:12.999-04:002011-07-06T17:31:12.999-04:00Eric: I'm not saying Daumier looks "bad&q...Eric: I'm not saying Daumier looks "bad" the way Shahn does. He only looks "bad" according to the criteria of his era.<br /><br />I see it as being very relative to what the norm of the day was. Daumier and Lautrec were certainly "crude" by Parisian academic standards. These days we see the lyricism and gesture in their work and the superb mastery of line weight. But the mainstream contemporary viewer of 1840 or 1880 would have seen instead brutishly heavy outlines, distorted figures, morally suspect art. Just as people used to seeing the tight, well-proportioned figures of most magazine illustration circa 1945 would have seen nothing but "bad drawing" in modern artists and Shahn - what many posting here have now called quite excellent drawing, thanks to the norm having shifted even more.jaleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13257085483416950886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-38871645487914476132011-07-06T08:50:55.745-04:002011-07-06T08:50:55.745-04:00Ben Shahns drawings are brilliant! If you didn'...Ben Shahns drawings are brilliant! If you didn't already, please read what Gemma Correll thinks about this debate. It's a pretty good article http://gemma-correll.blogspot.com/2011/07/naive-or-just-bad.htmlclaracharlottehttp://claracharlotte.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-20769052522102508962011-07-06T07:46:54.607-04:002011-07-06T07:46:54.607-04:00>>>Anonymous said...
Am I missing someth...>>>Anonymous said... <br />Am I missing something? He can obviously draw extremely well. Look at his lines, the shapes, the proportions. Every detail is considered and perfectly executed.<<<<br /><br />How can one make evaluations like that from expressive drawings where there is no standard of comparison? The only possible solution I can think of is to compare it to other expressive drawings, but even that would be extremely subjective.ednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-50946894269265439062011-07-06T05:23:37.340-04:002011-07-06T05:23:37.340-04:00Jaleen,
I agree with many of your choices and ca...Jaleen, <br /><br />I agree with many of your choices and can absolutely see a precedent for Shahn's work in the artists of magazines such as New Masses, Revolt, The Workers Weekly, but i think you're casting your net a little wide. I don't see anything crude / primitive / naive in the work of Daumier or Lautrec. Can certainly see it in the social realists / regionalism of the 30s though, such as Thomas Hart Benton.<br /><br />thanksEricnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-49685863534638685022011-07-06T00:34:23.916-04:002011-07-06T00:34:23.916-04:00as promised: http://jaleengrove.blogspot.com/2011/...as promised: http://jaleengrove.blogspot.com/2011/07/bad-drawing.htmljaleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13257085483416950886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-71619935655295995092011-07-05T23:55:47.079-04:002011-07-05T23:55:47.079-04:00Eric said...
---------
Jaleen: "The lineag...Eric said...<br />---------<br /> Jaleen: "The lineage can actually be traced back to Daumier's caricatures for Le Charivari; there's your Big Bang"<br /><br /> Jaleen, can you elaborate on the stylistic conection you see between Daumier and Shahn please ?<br />-----------<br /><br />Hi, I would look at Daumier's loose style and satirical edge and known socialist/anti-establishment beliefs. Take that to Grandville, and others who were experimenting with "monstrous" bodies. Then look to Punch, the "English Charivari", and the legacy of caricature there (guess I have to throw a bone to Rowlandson et al, predating Daumier), again with attention to desecrating the academic classical ideal to render les bourgeois ridiculous. Don't forget Lautrec's wiggly linework, then some of the Symbolists who were going for simplified figures, or more expressionist bodies like Munch -- all of them counter culture types. Go also to Max Beerbohm and Yellow Book. I suspect there are less aestheticist publications out there, but I don't know them. But look at the fake naive woodcut style that became the rage in the 1890s in poster art and English kids' books, like Edward Lear; those illustrators were aligned with Arts and Crafts, tied to the communism of William Morris and Walter Crane (altho they were not into "bad drawing" themselves). Crane had a tie to The Masses, incidentally. In The Masses, you've got the social realism of the Ashcan guys and others, and the idea of loose drawing denoting socialist politics is well established. Next The New Yorker and similar magazines pick it up (I think I'll post an example on my blog). Of course cubism was famous in the US after the Armory Show - and rampant in hipsters' decor thru the deco age - just have a look at Russell Patterson's spoofy depictions of swinging "cafe society" NY apartments. And then to Shahn, who takes that legacy and makes it look up to date for the 40s and 50s by referencing abstract expressionism.jaleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13257085483416950886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-88599572644912470612011-07-05T18:38:15.397-04:002011-07-05T18:38:15.397-04:00Happy Now? You've Kille Cy Twombly.Happy Now? You've Kille Cy Twombly.Mark Kaufmanhttp://www.thecreativefinder.com/drawmarknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-8516846340149755792011-07-05T18:21:26.154-04:002011-07-05T18:21:26.154-04:00Am I missing something? He can obviously draw extr...Am I missing something? He can obviously draw extremely well. Look at his lines, the shapes, the proportions. Every detail is considered and perfectly executed. <br />Whether you like his work or not, if you don't think he can draw or that his drawing are 'bad', then I feel you lack an understanding about drawing, as well as the purpose of composition, simplicity as well as the purpose of illustration in general.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-44200056966249080882011-07-05T16:21:52.674-04:002011-07-05T16:21:52.674-04:00illustration is about communication, and so surely...illustration is about communication, and so surely it doesn't matter in what style an idea is expressed, just that you 'get it' and it does its job. i think a technical ability in realistic drawing is important, but important so that it can inform you in whatever way you want to express an idea.Sophie H Powellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14848654417884397721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-57812534822042881312011-07-05T16:09:18.602-04:002011-07-05T16:09:18.602-04:00"The lineage can actually be traced back to D..."The lineage can actually be traced back to Daumier's caricatures for Le Charivari; there's your Big Bang"<br /><br />Jaleen, can you elaborate on the stylistic conection you see between Daumier and Shahn please ?Ericnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-32138303736233248252011-07-05T15:37:54.300-04:002011-07-05T15:37:54.300-04:00Anonymous (btw, please include a name when you com...Anonymous (btw, please include a name when you comment anonymously);<br /><br />if you read the comments so far I think you'll find that many people here have made it pretty clear that they appreciate how difficult it is to draw like Ben Shahn. If you go back and read my post again, I think you'll come to appreciate that what I was questioning is if there aren't those fakers out there who look at Ben Shahn's work and think, "that's so easy to do -- I could draw really poorly and people (clients) will think I'm a damn genius!"leifpenghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07232334860061949895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-19274733408834269732011-07-05T15:32:46.444-04:002011-07-05T15:32:46.444-04:00Thanks for adding your spin to the discussion, And...Thanks for adding your spin to the discussion, Andy - I appreciate it! I also appreciate you acknowledging that I'm not taking a stance on the subject in my post. I will admit to being a bit deliberately audacious in my use of the term "bad art" in the hopes of compelling readers to express their opinion on the topic. <br /><br />For the record, when it comes to different kinds of illustration/art, I'm probably the most openminded person your ever going to meet! A look through this blog's archives should pretty much confirm that for anyone who cares to look. ;^)leifpenghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07232334860061949895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-10071250413447397672011-07-05T14:58:30.407-04:002011-07-05T14:58:30.407-04:00The whole point of artists choosing to do things &...The whole point of artists choosing to do things 'naive' as you say, is because it can be used to play off intuition.<br /><br />Art is not always about technical prowess, but about communication.<br /><br />Also, these drawings in many ways show an understanding of human forms, and use distortion to communicate.<br /><br />Realism in art is not a higher path, I am not arguing it's a lower path, but in my personal experience, I find that people who either refuse or are unable to find worth in art outside of realism lack intuition.<br /><br />For example, I have met many people who prefer Metal above all other types of music because the fast pace and skill it takes to play the songs, easily translates to objective analysis. More plainly, there is no disputing it's 'good' because it is technically impressive in the sense it's a difficult thing to do, and for some people and impossible thing to achieve.<br /><br />However, art is not only about skill, it's about insight, communication and meaning, and often times, a simple drawing can attain more meaning than a technical one can.<br /><br />A Ugandan child's drawing of war experienced first hand can warrant much more meaning than a technically correct drawing of an engine in an engineering text book.<br /><br />This discussion of whether or not the drawing is technically simple or not goes way deeper than whether or not it's crafted with perfection, etc.<br /><br />Lastly, abstract art, and this type of attitude in art is present throughout art history, not just now with these 'young illustrators.<br /><br />One more thing, I understand the writer of this blog isn't directly taking a stance on the issue, I just want to my spin on it.<br /><br />Good topic of discussion, thanks for bringing this up!Andy J. Millerhttp://www.designkoma.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-23880520472753273282011-07-05T14:39:33.922-04:002011-07-05T14:39:33.922-04:00Does anyone here have any idea how truly difficult...Does anyone here have any idea how truly difficult it is to draw like Ben Shahn?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-91312639644555621132011-07-05T14:33:25.385-04:002011-07-05T14:33:25.385-04:00@whoever
Jules Feiffer is da bomb!@whoever<br /><br />Jules Feiffer is da bomb!CMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10233384990776605776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18907156.post-3464789677339373782011-07-05T03:15:20.574-04:002011-07-05T03:15:20.574-04:00Also, to Kev:
Shahn's work is not mysterious ...Also, to Kev:<br /><br />Shahn's work is not mysterious or confusing. But illustration is not SUPPOSED to be cryptic. It is, as you so aptly put, the creation of images to be read by the masses. Putting him next to Andrew Wyeth, whose job it WAS to create ambiguity is a little deceptive. And he was most certainly more challenging to his audience within an illustrator's limitations than most of his contemporaries.<br /><br />But yeah, I'd rather stare at Brangwyn or a Wyeth any day. SERIOUSLY. No contest. I just feel like I have to take up for poor Ben. He was just doing is JOB, y'all.JAKE WYATThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07476712770029415652noreply@blogger.com